I keep running into people, grown-ups who've grown up within the church, who say just the same as Mark Stewart, "Let's drop the church and meet down at Café Borgen and talk about what life is all about and how we should live it." I've just come from an hour-long conversation where the very same thing came from a different generation. So now I've heard it from teenagers, 20-23 year olds, 23-30 year old's and above. The one I talked to tonight said, "when they call people to the front for salvation, I feel like going too!" He named the names of about 12 people who meet because they are in the same boat! A thought popped into my head, that I've headed into a crisis that is apparently capable of lasting years, decades. Its a predicament, a frustration, and it makes me anxious, desperate! But what to do?
How many are we in this situation? How many just need to talk about this right now instead of being encouraged to 'come to the front?' Where is God in all of this and what is actually the root-problem to be adressed? Should we stand together in this or don't we wanna 'rock the boat?'
At least its inspired me to one of the most expressive songs I've ever written with a chorus that says, "I've heard that You are good / and I've heard that You are great / I've heard that You are mighty to save, mighty to save me today" I hope to play it one day and that it'll help someone else out there to see that they're not alone with this. Being alone with it is not a good thing.
27 January, 2006
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we got to rock the boat, standing together or not. I want to rock from where I'm at.
Hej Ivan =)
Først: Jeg er meget glad for dig.
Dernæst: Jeg læste lige din blog, og jeg synes lige at du skal tænke en ekstra gang inden du begynder at danne en forening mod alt der har med kirke at gøre. For det lyder altså lidt sådan... Det lyder som om du vil starte en gruppe for kristne som er alene og er imod "kirke". Fedt, så er I allerede selv blevet en kirke, og så kan I danne forening mod jer selv eller hvad? Sandt nok at kirke ikke behøver at være i en bygning - men prøv at samles bare 60 mennesker hjemme hos dig.
Jeg ved godt at du ikke mener det sådan, men det er sådan din blog lyder...
Vi er nogen der lytter til Gud hver dag om hvordan vi giver ham så meget plads som muligt i vores kirke. Så er det ikke rart at komme ind på din side, hvor det lyder som om han slet ikke er der.
Tilsidst: Jeg synes det er uhyggeligt så meget folk forventer af en kirke. Det er lige før man skal løbe hen til en person bare han har stået et halvt minut alene i caféen. Ellers kunne han jo finde på at sige at han føler sig overset.
Min celle var ude at bowle, og bartenderen spurgte Jakob hvor vi allesammen kendte hinanden fra. "Hvorfor?" "Bare fordi I ser ud som om I er helt vildt go'e venner." Og det er vi. Og nej, vi samles ikke altid om hinanden, for vi samler os om Gud. Det har en pris nogle gange, men guess what, det hedder tjeneste, og lønnen, ja den får man ikke på denne side af døden.
Du kan jo være med i min nye gruppe hvis du vil. Vi mødes hver fredag skiftevis kl 18.00 og kl 19.00 og arbejder mod at skabe et autentisk fællesskab i Skywalk.
I still like you =) Just had to vent...
Anja
i don´t even know what i need to talk about anymore and i don´t know how long it´s going to take....all i know is that i am dead confused. if they where calling people up front for salvation i would probably run away and NOT feel like going up front. i don´t think there is anything wrong with the church, it´s good for some people and it´s encouraging and uplifting for some... for me church will probably never be encouraging and uplifting, i don´t think it´s ever been, at least i don´t remember right now. but it´s was the way i was taught to live life so i tried, and now failed, and i don´t want to get myself down on that and i don´t ever wanna wear my church mask again, i have been tempted, but i will resist. i need to find peace and i will some day, i think i need to find it in God and not try and find it the way i was taught to, didn´t work. it took one of my friends 6 years to get there, i still have 4½ to go then... i don´t even know how this relates to what you wrote, but this is what came to mind when reading your entry and reading anja´s. anja´s triggered me quiet a lot, but i thought only to comment on your blog.
Hey Anja, I like you too.. [smile] And I do understand your points fully and had the same thoughts this evening. I am aware that I tend to work myself into a frenzy because I do not see things in perspective. But I feel I have approached this subject tentatively to see if anybody contributed with a missing perspective, that would put me at ease.
You must also understand that I do not write this simply to knock the church or in any way the people who have unpaid full-time jobs there. I hope this can be constructive and beneficial for all.
Neither did I mean to insinuate that God is not pleased with this church and has turned away from it. Rather, it was a cry for a God-perspective to this predicament. "Is this because I am in the wrong in relation to God's will or is there really a problem to be addressed in the church?"
All points to my question, "what is the root problem?" What is the common denominator for all of us - the people who have these questions? (This topic is so diffuse that I don't even know what to call this problem; if it even is a single problem? Again, this is why I call for someone to help formulate what it is!)
Perhaps we project our various personal failures in our relation to God onto the church, in which case the problem is a decentralized one and not to be addressed officially as a crisis of the church.
Perhaps we project our various personal failures in our relations to each other onto the churhch, in which case the problem is also too widespread to be addressed officially and labelled a crisis of the church.
Perhaps the church is not calling a spade a spade and thereby encouraging "masks" ('encouraging' to some extent - maybe just 'accepting' or 'playing along with'), in which case 'the church' would have to re-assess its identity and role in the lives of the members and the community and for which it would be necessary for someone to 'rock the boat.'
Perhaps none of the above apply, and I do not see at all what the problem is? Perhaps there is no problem at all?
As John Mayer puts it, "I can't wait to figure out what's wrong with me / so I can say this is the way that I used to be."
Lastly, is it not only fair to expect the church to address this issue when there are lives at stake? A common mistake would be to simply look ahead and hope that the member count would still be growing owing to the new-comers. Hurt people are quiet people.
Sorry Ivan; sorry Anne
I didn't mean to say that no one has the right to stop going to church, or anything like that. I didn't mean that kind of "club". It was the thought of a club that's AGAINST the church. Now I know, Ivan, that you're not thinking of that; you'd like to start an open dialogue for people who've been hurt. That sounds good.
There's just the little thing you mention: "Rocking the boat". And doing it together.
The problem I have with that, is that where some people may benefit from a dialogue like that, most won't. Because I can assure you: The boat's been rocking for years. And years. And
we're so tired of going over the same issues again and again. You ask "Are there problems to be adressed within the church?" If that's your opening question, my answer is, "Of course there are. There are loads and loads of them. Where do you want to start?"
The fact that there are problems just makes it the same as every other church. If we had a church like the first one, where the members sold everything they had, and laid the money at the leaders' feet, would you be ready for it? If the church was without problems, I guess we'd be experiencing what used to be called revival. Most people don't even like that word.
About a year ago, I chose not to say anything negative about my church ever again, unless it was done constructively. I was sick and tired of everything. The fuel for my irritation was people's words. Everyone was complaining. And that's one of our main problems. Criticism. It's been oozing out of everyone for years. It's not till this year that people have started to cool off.
I guess it also depends on what you mean by "the church". Do you mean the universal church on the whole planet? The non-state churches in Denmark? It's hard for you to avoid it being about the church that you come from. That's the people that know you. That's the people that visit this page. We'll all naturally think of our church. That's what we'll be talking about.
And I can't imagine that anyone will benefit from a dialogue on a homepage where the theme is "problems in the church". If a person was truly hurt, would the person write it on a homepage? I think real-life dialogues would be more appropriate. Dialogues about problems in the church requires, as we've seen for at least 5 years now, an extremely high level of communication and trust. Simply because we're human.
I'm not saying that no one should ever criticize a church. But there's certain rules about speaking correction to others. The most constructive one is written in Matthew 18 and is spoken by Jesus, and of course you've heard it before, but I'll repeat it (paraphrased): "If you want to correct a brother, tell it to him personally. If he won't listen, bring one or two more. If he still won't listen..."
If you have anything to say to the church(whichever one it might be), I suggest you write a letter to the leadership. I've done that. They listened. If it's a few people, or many, write or talk to them. If it's a whole church, say it at a Sunday service. If it's the universal church, then you're still stating negative things about the family you'll have in Heaven.
I guess I'm tired of being critical. It makes me angry. And when I'm angry, I'm not happy. It's that simple. It's ruins my day, my week, my month... I guess that's why this issue can bring out the entire emotional spectrum in me. It gets to me because I know that if we sat down and talked, we'd agree on 99% of everything. And it gets to me because we're supposed to fight someone completely different. Like you say Ivan, it's about lives.
P.S. I happily considered my ministry to be a priviledge where I can develop and give, until it was called an "unpaid full-time job". Now I have to remind myself that it isn't. An example of how criticism doesn't make my day better.
My idea of a peaceful boat is the opening of most Sundays, "Let's all sit down and have a good time." Now that's tranquility on a surface. My idea of rocking this is not necessarily very violent. Any movement would rock that boat. This isn't about ganging up and starting rumours in the pews down the back, this is about sharing ourselves, finding ourselves understood and even recognised and being healed through it. I don't wanna start my own church and I've never really had a desire to do so. I tried to start a cell-group for people slipping away from church 1½ years ago but was specifically told that I couldn't. 1½ years later I'm actually in a dialogue finding that feeling uneasy at church isn't the end of my eternity! I'm not about to abandon that and lock myself up again!
So the theme here is more along the lines of "Perplexions in an Appeased Christian Culture." The reason its online is because I would never dream of approaching Mark, saying, "Mark, I feel uneasy, I don't know what it is, but perhaps you feel it too?" I'm too bound even to talk to anyone over a cup of coffee afterwards!
Now, I'm not saying that my way is always the right way. But not being allowed to think aloud is to me too constraining. I'm not out to be critical and I'm sorry about your allergy to the word "work," I didn't possess the foresight or tact to see that it would make it bad for you. But again, its not about critisizing the church, for me its about talking about my life and getting some input instead of going crazy with it myself eventually concluding that I am hopelessly misfitting.
SÅ vidt jeg kan se, kan alle dem der skriver herinde dansk. Jeg vil helst ikke øve mit dårlige engelsk, når det handler om noget så vigtigt som kirken/hvad problemet nu er.
For mig at se, har problemet længe været kirken. Den er umoderne og uinspirerende. Det er sjældent jeg føler mig udfordret, hvis jeg tager til Skywalk. Jeg føler mig bekræftet hver eneste gang. Bekræftet i det jeg har lært i Skywalk siden det engang hed undgomsforeningen. Og Junior. Hvor er de nye vinkler? Jeg har virkelig savnet god forkyndelse, som kunne sparke til mine opfattelser.
Som menneske skaber man sig hurtigt et syn på tingene, som man så orienterer sig udfra. Mange af 'os' der har et eller andet problem med kirken har brug også et syn på kirken som skal ændres. Men det er svært at ændre, når man hele tiden bliver bekræftet i sit syn. Når man møder op til et Skywalk-møde er det den samme lovsang, den samme forkyndelse og den samme overflade. Det samme show.
Jeg bliver bekræftet i mit syn på kirken hver gang jeg møder op.
På en eller anden måde er vi en masse der skal have ændres deres syn. Der er åbenbart en masse, som har skabt sig et syn, der ikke er sundt. Det skal ændres! Hvordan? Ved at lade være med at kæfte op? Nej.
Jeg snakkede med UMO-lederen Kresten i går om det. Han spurgte, om jeg nogensinde havde sagt noget til ledelsen. Mit svar var ganske enkelt "Nej, faktisk ikke".
For Skywalk har brug for en fornyelse, hvis der skal ske noget. Hvem er det, der har et 'problem' med kirken. Jeg vil hævde, at det fortrinsvis er gymnasie-folk oog lignende, som forventer mere end det de har fået at vide lige siden teenage-årene.
Forkyndelse og arrangementer der udfordrer, sparker nye perspektiver ind i hovedet på folk og giver folk noget tænke over. Så hovedet knager i stedet for at nikke. Og det skal ikke handle om intelligent-design vs. evolution. Det skal handle om folks liv og perspektiver.
Well. Jeg er på mange måder en tænker. Og mit åndsliv ligger i ruiner. Og nu rejser jeg til Århus og begynder at komme i Århus Valgmenighed. På mange måder kan man godt sige, at jeg flygter.
Til sidst vil jeg sige, at jeg godt ved at der også kan være andre persinlige problemer der har haft betydning for nogen, og som kan have virket katalyserende. Men for mig har hovedproblemet nok været, at jeg for det meste sov under forkyndelsen.
I am not exactly sure what is meant by going to the front for salvation, so I do not really think it is my place to comment on this particular blog. I have never really understood organized religion and why worship must happen within the church and be controlled by the church. Maybe to much trust, faith or emphasis is put into the importance of the church organization, instead of the actual religion being practiced? I mean is it necissary to worship within the walls of a particular building? Does the place really make a difference? I know many people who do not feel comfortable or an ease in a "church" setting and would much rather worship at there own pace, in their own special private place where they feel more comfortable and secure and I personally see nothing wrong with that. I know this is probably not what you are talking about in your entry, but it is just what came to mind when I read it, i hope thats ok.
Hi everyone -
After some thought I've decided to leave this debate. I have a feeling none of you will mind =)
Of course we're all entitled to tell our own story. I wasn't trying to say that we can't. We just all know that there's a fine balance between telling our own story and criticism.
Filip, jeg er sikker på at du har hørt gode prædikener i Skywalk. Men jeg kan godt forstå hvis du synes det er for "teenaget" - Skywalk spænder helt fra 15 til 25 år, og det synes jeg også er et problem. Jeg er glad for at høre at du tager til Århus Valgmenighed. Det er en super kirke, så jeg håber du får det godt der.
Do me a favour, all you who are tired of going to church. Please don't just talk about why you don't like it. Instead please leave me some clues as to what it is that you want? I know it can be hard to write in words, but I'd really really really like to know.
the problem with meeting in a church building, for me, it's like living two different lifes. there's the songs, that can be really nice, then there is the preaching about what it is to be a christian. many times it's so unrealistic. the way things are done and what is said is so far from my daily life. some of the best meetings i have been to is where there has been testimonies from a lot of different people, no preaching. let's talk real life, real joy, real problems, real hurts. that's where i find God.
[nods]
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